A-Cat: Guess who is Flying?
The first racing flying ACat that I saw was Martin Fischer’s Mayfly test in Noumea, we all know the story, it didn´t work at Aarhus in the low-medium range, but now many are trying to improve Martin’s concept, to go faster reducing wet surface. Some are currently using J boards, S foils, etc, etc just check the A-Class label. But this is the best image so far I’ve seen of a racing beachcat flying, if class legal we’ll find out soon.
This kid is a hidden genius home builder, but we are going to put him on the limelight now.
His name is Raphael Censier, 19 years Old. Interview on Monday.
Flying ??
According to the video,
https://raphael-censier.jimdo.com/médiathèque/vidéos-classe-a/
I would say jumping and falling,
I don't believe this boat will ever fly in stable way with C or J foils which are not stable at all and stole as soon as the boat start to take off like the Nacra 17 and 20 do. Having winglets on the rudders do not solve all the flying issues, it just increase the foreanhalf stablity but not height stability of the foils… These C and J foils are just suituable for creating a lift on the leeward hull but they are not adapted at all for the flying mode…
Frenchies are incredible !!
Yep, he qualifies for the flying-froggie title !
Udinidesign: Whatever, this kid is flying a legal A-Class & this is the best image so far, it flies good. Not skimming 2mm out of the water in one picture.
And the video sequence of this image qualifies as Flying.
This from a kid and home builder, he is not even using rudder winglets!
More info & video of this image next week on his interview.
If your boat doesn´t fly is not the kid's fault!
Martin,
Please do not misunderstand me, I have a lot of respect for this young guy. He is for sure very talented !
But according to the video, he is doing a stable flight but staling after a few meters which is pretty predictable with this type of foils.
You will see very shortly some cats flying with a stable flight and able to perform on a race course, believe me it is pretty different than what you can see with the A Class or the White Dragoon, it is not easy to achieve.
There is no animosity at all in my last post just an observation.
All Ok, just give the kid due credit, and after knowing what he is using for foils, this flight will be even more appreciated.
I think the perfect course racing solution is already there, ETNZ AC72, and they even have rule restrictions.
A-Class can´t use that conf as the dagger must enter the case from above.
Without restrictions I will built down scale replica of ETNZ, they make it look quite 'easy'.
Perfecttion or as I posted earlier: 'Stradivarius' sailing, a new step higher than Champagne sailing!
This kid is having his own Champagne moments right now.
I agree with you Martin, but you cannot just scale down ETNZ and make it a beach cat.
It much easier to fly on a 72 foot catamaran than on a beach cat because proportionally the size of the waves and chops is much smaller on a 72" cat in relation to the size of the foils and the length between the rudders and the foils is much longer which make it much more stable…
I think you should try it yourself. My friends at DNA already did, they report easy flights, but sadly no images/vid.
https://dnacat.blogspot.com.ar/2013/01/test-of-etnz-configuration.html
They are in Spain right now, and I'm waiting for some good footage.
If it is so easy you would have for sure a video, it is pretty tricky to have a real stable flight especialy as soon as you get some chop and waves…
Then speed is another thing, you can have a boat flying but slow…
TNZ has spent countless hours testing different type of foils and settings on their SL33 before getting something stable and fast.
Believe me it is not easy !
Mmmm I think you should take a flight to Mar Menor and see it for yourself. Their are having a blast right now….
He just needs some T-foil rudders and that bunny-hopping should settle into semi-controlled flight.
My guess is he may have gone for a higher lift (more cambered) section on the bottom of the J which could be draggy in the light stuff but gives earlier take-off?
re: ETNZ.
Well once you have the R&D made by them in the SL33s/AC72 and after seeing the results, I guess is quite "easy" now.
Just look at Oracle, they have these straight L foils tested on the 45, then they went with them directly on the 72, they failed.
Solution? The famous "Copy-Paste" from ETNZ latest foils, and now they are flying fast and rather smooth as seen in their great video.
it's so impressive to see people always speaking too fast even before the race start.
oracle failed but it's imposible to say it's due to the foil no?
every body claim ETNZ already winner , but how we could think like that.
this a cat is not flying , just jumping.
stay a bit humble please.
?????????
Another nervous guy ( I don´t get the reason though) taking away credit from the kid.
Define "jumping??"
He is Flying quite steady for some meters, he has only one good dagger , home built A carbon , no winglets.
Give him some time…
On ETNZ: We are all fans, I'm a fan, this is a site for catsailing fans.
And right now I like ETNZ and hope Artemis can recover.
The interesting 'chit chat' is before the races, not after knowing the results.
What is your problem? OR, AR, TNZ, LR are all big guys, they can take comments from a blog without a problem.
I believe we see some cultural and language differences in this discussion that makes the comments seem more aggressive than intended.
Udini makes some neutral and objective comments as I read them. But then I am from a very direct and even blunt culture where we talk directly about targets and how far along the road to achieve our objectives we are. These observations does not diminish the skills, abilities and motivation Raphael have demonstrated.
The Moths went through a lot of iterations to achieve stable and efficient flight (to be fast). They had to resort to active foil control to do it. I believe we will have to do the same thing on beachcats to achieve the same.
Look out for the C-cat guys! "Off yer rockers" was only the first proper iteration!
Look forward to seeing the interview. Hope you asked Raphael on how he designed and built his C-foils!
the problem is to be sure of what we want or looking for.
the goal is to fly or to have the fastest boat as we are talking about racing.
there isn't at the moment a catamaran who can prove to be faster when full flying.
so , is it realy such a good thing to fly a slow boat or is it preferable to sail a fast "normal" boat?
this A is stable during 5 meters probably and fall after.
Following Rolf line of thought:
Where do you read that a flying beachcat is the faster mode?
Maybe this year, we will see some As flying, I even remarked that first attempt failed on this same post.
Udinidesign, said the kid was not Flying, again, define it. He IS Flying.
So I didn´t make any assumption, following Rolf cold analisys, I just said "Look who is flying", Not "Look who is going to win next A Worlds"
Reading the +200 posts on the AClass, specially the latest, I always point that these new attempts must be proven while Racing.
Getting back to the subject, some are struggling to even have a picture ''jumping'' , Raphael is making some constant """jumping"" and with some good foils , winglets and more time we will see +20sec flights as reported today from Mar Menor…
So lets rephrase for those having problem with the word Flight:" Look who is "junping" higher and for more time than other beachcats…."
Raphael wrote in his blog "First legal flying Acat", and I say No: first was Fischer's Mayfly. But yes kid, You ARE Flying.
On the AC, Artemis has recognize today they need to fly:
https://sailingscuttlebutt.com/archived_Detail.asp?key=5149
So we might Not see two modes in this Cup, but all AC72s airborne. Who is the faster around the Course? We'll known soon. I like ETNZ for SF.
Hi all,
It’s not possible to compare my conception and AC72 conception. We have not the same class rules and not the same budget. My foil concept don’t use computer. All is based on feeling.
We have a debate if my boat flying or not. If you consider that flying is same as ETNZ or moth, answer is no my boat doesn’t fly at all. If you consider that mayfly, GC32, Flying phantom are flying boat, answer is yes my boat fly.
It’s one of the reason that I put question mark on my title “first flying A-cat?”.
If you consider that mayfly flying, I am second.
If you consider that flying is totally jumping, I am first.
If you consider that flying is 1min above water, I don’t fly.
Choose your answer in terms of your culture and adapts your opinion with other post.
https://catsailingnews.com/2013/02/gc-32-skimming-flight.html
https://catsailingnews.com/2013/02/olympics-n17-sweden-racing-flight.html
https://catsailingnews.com/2011/04/class-martin-fischers-flying.html
To concern technical issue, V foil as hydroptere is better than C but it is the same autostable working. I can’t use V foil to respect class rules. Why can’t we fly on C foil?
Sorry but I have too much difficulties to participate actively on debate
Hi Raphael
You don´t need to enter debates.Don´t worry.
You are a DOER and making history in racing 'beachcats', let others do the talking!
this blog is the best when we just get data, pics, videos and interviews…
stop the comments and fights about who is right or wrong… there is enough BS on sailing anarchy… do not take that road please!
great blog CSN, keep it simple!
All OK, no one has insulted none, no personal attacks so all good plus a little semantics discussion.
The first racing beachcat Jumps/Flights that I'm aware comes from the M20, then F20c, Landy told me about some flight on his A too, years ago and Macca will know for sure who was first.
But as clear as I wrote in the original post above: This is the best image so far.
Interview on Monday, have a nice weekend.
Cheers,
Martin