F18: ISAF Interpretation on Paint and Gelcoat
No Comments.
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https://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/F182012INT170212-%5B12114%5D.pdf
INTERPRETATION OF THE INTERNATIONAL
FORMULA 18 CLASS RULES
A request for an Interpretation in accordance with Regulation 10.12.1(a) was
received from the International Formula 18 Class Association.
The following interpretation has been made in accordance with Regulation
10.12.1(d) on the 17
th
February 2012 and is effective until the 31st December
2012 or until the next edition of the class rules whichever is sooner.
Question 1:
In reference to class rule D.2.3(a) “Routine maintenance such as painting and
polishing is permitted without re-measurement and re-certification” – Does this rule
allow new boats to be supplied with a painted finish?
Answer 1:
NO.
Question 2:
In reference to class rule D.3.1(a) “The hull shells shall be built from polyester or
vinylester resin, glass fibres…. Every material that is not expressly permitted is
prohibited.” – Does this mean that boats supplied from manufacturers should have
a gelcoat finish?
Answer 2:
NO.
Comments:
Maintenance is the process of keeping something in good condition; it is not
considered part of the build process.
Gel coat is not specifically referred to under Class Rule D.3.1(a); the F18 class
rules are closed class rules.
It is accepted that the presentation of the class rules in this area is unclear and
the International Sailing Federation is working with the F18 Class Association on
a number of potential class rule changes.
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Relating to Question 2:
So does this mean that an Epoxy finish hull is allowed?
It means that gelcoat is illegal, it is not mentioned in the rules so therefore you can't use it.
You can paint your hulls with any type of paint, as long as you do it after the boat is built. (maintenance)
The only other acceptable finish is resin, ie the polyester/vinylester resin the boat was built with.
So now the class has a problem… The thing some people were trying to stop is now the only legal finish for the class.
Lets hope that common sense comes into play here and we can all go and race in this great class without the political crap that has been going on for so long.
But itsnt gelcoat (ie colored polyester resin with mould release capabilities) what almost all F18s are made with anyway? This seems confusing and vague to say the least
ISAF have ruled that gelcoat is not allowed. The class rules are closed, so this means unless it is mentioned it it not allowed. Paint is mentioned so it is allowed if applied as part of maintenance.
It doesn't matter if all boats were made from gelcoat, the rules are the rules…
So for nearly 20 years every F18 sailor and builder has been wrong!?! Grow up Macca, you sound like a cheap lawyer!
If everybody else got the meaning, but you didn't, then surely the class just asks ISAF to correct an error in the text – no big deal. It all just depends on what was intended when the rules were written. What do the class say that the rules are supposed to mean?
After all, if you listen to every idiot who finds a loop hole then why bother with class rules!
This stupid fight has been about nothing since day one, F18's have been painted since the very beginning of the class and now the class decides that paint is bad?
The class has been using the exact wording of the rules to stop things like 2 cloth mainsails which are cheaper to produce and offer the same performance. But by using the exact text in the rules the class was able to ban them.
So now that the exact wording of the rules is not suitable for the class they go and change the rules to suit.
If the class rules made sense then nobody would bother to find areas of ambiguity.
When you ask to change the rules regarding the 2 cloth for the main sails which is a a pure non sense according to independent sail makers like Landenberger, Glaser, Ashby (a two cloth main sails is cheaper and more durable), the Class says the procedure is 12 months.
While they need to change the rules for the gelcoat because the rules a not properly written, it takes 24h.
Where is the consistency and the fairness ????
Is there any valuable reason to ban the paint ?? It is irrelevant to say it is in order to control the cost. Mattia, Windrush and others in the past are building painted boats and they are not more expensive..
Maybe it is the fact that the big boat builders (running the technical comity) don't want to change anything in their building process.
Or is it pure jealousness against SAIL INNOVATION ???
This class is run by the lobbying of the largest manufacturers…
It is really unfair and disgusting !
Alex UDIN
About Gel-coat: There is an amendment to the rules explicitly listing gel-coat as an authorized finish:
https://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/F182012ECRC21022012-%5B12130%5D.pdf
What is the problem with gelcoat, if it is based on a polyester resin? As far as I know, most of the boats are built with polyester gelcoat. According to the class rules, polyester is allowed for the hulls.
I don't really see the problem. Can somebody explain?
Someone should ask the class what they meant when they wrote the rule. Maybe they have said it already? I am sure ISAF would not help an internationall class to illegally change rules!
Gel coat is not considered as a Polyester resin by the manufacturer but as a derivative like also many Polyester car paint who both have a Polyester formula base… The Polyester family is very large.
For your information many existing boats are painted.
I really don't know what they have against the paint.
There is reason why they do not allow paint for the construction.
The class is once again struggling with the rules and open a very dangerous gap subject to many kind of interpretation…
How can you prove the difference between a gel coat which sprayed on the hulls (not in the mold) and a Polyester / Polyurethane car paint ?? They both have a Polyester formula base.
They should add the paint in the construction rules otherwise it will be a huge mess.
udinidesign: "The Polyester family is very large."
So where's the problem, if the rules state:
"The hull shells shall be built from polyester or vinylester resin,…"
If the F18 rules do not narrow the definition of "polyester resin" down in any way, every polyester based coating is fine.
This all feels a bit like the other company that made all the illegal sails and then wanted the rules changed afterwards.
MAX Catsailor :
Please do not write anything when you are not aware of the entire story !!
Your spinnaker were illegal too because of the patches !! They Changed the rules
Do you have a luff line on it ??? So it is still illegal !
Now do you want to stay on the parking or do you want to go sailing ??
This stupid fight has to stop one day.
It does not make any difference in terms performance to have 2 cloths in the mains…
Olivier Backes won the last europeans with a One cloth main which is least 20% more expensive to produce… Does it make sense for you ??
udinidesign,
Are you the same person as Sailing Innovation? It is nice to be able to ask direct questions…
Please explain to me, if there is no difference in one material or two material in the mainsails then why do you want it so much?
I have sailed with your sails. They are nice, flexible and look good, nice use of windsurfing ideas, but too expensive for me so I have bought from Landenberger. If your sails are more expensive made this way, then maybe all sails will get more expensive if you use 2 materials.
Max
Dear Max,
I agree with you, yes our sails are not cheap but according to our customer they have a very good value for money. Our cross cut sails with 2 cloth (10 panels) are cheaper to produce than our radial sails made of one cloth (33 panels).
You can find for sure some cheaper sails with less panels… We are doing only top of the range products, spending countless hours testing the sails with the best teams in order to offer the fastest and the most durable sails and boats to our valued customers. The class can not blame me for that.
Let first start with what you call common sense or what the rules is "supposed to mean".
As confirmed by the class chief measurer Pierre Charles (where he wrote that the intention of the rule was to limit the use of two types of cloth, ie: you must use either dacron or laminate) and the rule was never intended to limit different weights or styles of the same type of cloth (either laminate or dacron)
This rules is not limiting the cost and does not improve the durability of the sails.
Let me explain you why this rules is a non sense:
The cost of a laminate is directly linked with it’s weight, DPI (Denier Per square Inch) from 5 to 15 on the fabric listed on the cloth list and the thickness of the film (1,5 to 3mil on the fabric listed on the cloth list). For example DP PE 05 1,5mil is 35% cheaper than DP PE 15 1,5mil while PE 05 3mil is between these 2.
Please check the figure and schema on https://www.sail-innovation.com/sail-construction/
To build a main sails out of one cloth there is 2 options:
Use a cloth according to the maximum stress zone in the sails which is 2m bellow the head on the luff. In that case the cloth is overweight (expensive) in the zone where you have lower stress like in the middle of the sail. At the end you have an heavy and expensive sail. This option was used by Technique Voiles on the Media Voiles who made the complete sails out of PE 15 1,5mil.
Use a cloth according to an average stress all around in the sail. In that case the cloth is too heavy (expensive) in some zone and too light in the high stress zone which reduce the durability of the sail. As an extreme example, the sails made by Pablo Soldano for the Andrew Mc Pherson at the World on Ballaton was made of PE 05 1,5mil or Apen 06mil. This sails was ripped after 2 days.
Making a sails with several cloth specs permits to use a heavy cloth where the high stress are and light cloth in the low stress area in order to get a more durable sail and optimize the cost. Most of the sail makers are using this technique on many other boats.
Concerning the patches, many adhesive cloth for corner reinforcement are available on the market such as DP PSA XI Polyester or DP 65NT PSA Nylon for Spinnakers. These cloth are cheaper than all the cloth listed in the cloth list, it is faster for the production and the connection with the body of the sails is a lot better than double sides tapes which make the sails lasting longer. Most of the F18 spinnakers are already using custom made adhesive cloth for their spinnaker patches.
Concerning the cross cut sails, it has been proven by in the history (Tornado, A cats, Windsurfing sails) that the cross cut sail reproducibility is a lot better than the radial sails. The seam shape in a radial sails with 30 panels are between 3mm and 1 mm per panel while it is between 20 and 4mm on a cross cut sail with 9 panels. It is physically impossible to be accurate and consistant (cutting, plotting, assembling) with very small seam shape. This is why most of the big boat Radial sails are assembled flat and re cut on under the batten pocket as a cross cut sails. For exemple Banque Populaire 5 main is done with this technique.
We do not use use any expensive bonding system (like Q tape, Q bond ultrasonic…) on our sails but only standard double sided tapes with insignia and seams. The one piece mast panel highly reduce the strains in the cross cut joints. This is how all the windsurfing sails are made, it is the fastest, the cheapest way with the best reproducibility.
Sail Innovation is producing mains, jibs and spinnakers with 2 cloths since more than 6 years in order to get the more durable and most competitive products in terms of price for our customers.
The class can not ban all my sails or boats because they are more sophisticated than my competitors. We are now living in a democracy, If I want to build a sails with 100 panels with a Jeff Koons art work and sell it for 50 000 Euros this is my choice. You can prevent it, communism is over.
Sorry for making it so long but people really need to know what going on…
Kindest regards
Alex UDIN
Final last thing, we did not try to cheat or hide the fact we are using 2 different cloths in the body of the main sails. Both materials are clearly mentioned on the label stick on the tack of the sail according to the rules. The sails have been all measured and stamped by official measurer with full knowledge of the facts, the measurer clearly mentioned the 2 cloths on the measurement sheet.
Alex UDIN
Hi Alex,
Thanks for so much info. F18 is a great class. The fact that there is a committee trying to control the cost is great, and I love that there are a selection of suppliers for everything. If the Tornado class had this a few years ago they might still be in the olympics and I would still own one.
I have faith in the class. They have managed 20 years of growing, and now all the problems seem to be coming from one company challenging them. These boats are getting too expensive. If the cost does not come back down people like me will buy something else. It that comes for having or not having paint, or from making sails 2x stronger I don't really care. The people are the same, the races are the same, and as long as long as everyone follows the rules the competition is always great. This is an awesome class, but people need to stop making it so expensive.
Max
Why are you always pointing your finger on SAIL INNOVATION ??
Please stop this fierceness,
Mattia and Windrush are painted since several years and no one ever complained about it, and they are not more expensive…
As I explained you a painted boat is not more expensive and a 2 cloths main sails is cheaper.
What are you asking for ???
I am also convinced that the F18 has to stay affordable.
You can buy a Hobie Tiger for 3000 Euros these days and it still be very competitive with some recent sails.
It has never been so cheap to start F18 !!
Mischa Heemskerk won the North American national on a old Tiger, 2 or 3 years ago.
If you want to buy some cheap sails, go to forward sailing.
https://www.forward-sailing.com/mainsails-dart-hawk-f18-c-2_91/mainsail-f18-p-3
I am sure it is the cheapest main on the market (1199 Euros)
F18 is a class which allows development. If you do not want any development sail a one design class like Hobie 16… But you will also see that the price has significantly increase years after years.
A Hobie 16 costed a third of today's price when it was launched. The boat is still exactly the same, no sail development, nothing…
So please do not blame me because my products are too expensive.
Cheers
Alex UDIN
Alex,
I am sorry if you think I was being fierce – maybe my english is not going across.
I am not pointing my finger at you. But you and Macpherson are everywhere trying to make changes. If I google I find him on sailing anarchy fighting Carolijn Brower, I find him on Catsailor forum fighting the F18 class. I see you on Facebook and this site telling people you can supply boats with no finish and paint them as maintenance. You are making lots of fights, everywhere. I have never in 10 years of my F18 sailing, here in the US, holland or anywhere else, seen fighting like this, and you are involved in all of it. You call me fierce, but actually all my comments have been polite and supported the class. But you want to change everybodys opinion.
I have complimented your sails – I think they are good. But if the F18 class makes changes because you and macpherson make more trouble than anyone else it is a very sad day for sailing.
I respect your products, and your knowledge to make fast sails. But I also trust the F18 class to make fair decisions. They have been running a class since you were in school! It is very clear to me that you are trying to force changes you want. Maybe you would prefer a one design class you own like the laser – then you could make all the decisions!
ISAF and the F18 class will fix all this. My guess is that it will take longer than it takes you and me to post silly messages on a forum. Let them make some answers.
Max
Max,
I have been really quiet about this matter in the past but now I am really upset.
I am very sorry but I cannot let you say that the F18 has been fair regarding SAIL INNOVATION.
Several peoples from the World Council can testify about the hatred of certain persons (Pablo Soldano, James Backler…) regarding myself and my company.
The decisions taken by the F18 World Council regarding SAIL INNOVATION are absolutely unfair, my company and myself are treated as a criminal since the last World Championship, it must stop.
The situation must be fully explained to the sailors.
Here are the alleged facts to SAIL INNOVATION:
1. All the SAIL INNOVATION sails with some “Polyester patches ” (not even Pentex) with adhesive glue on it were banned after the last World Championship causing dozens of thousand Euros of damage to my company.
According to the independent sail makers from the Working Party (Landenberger, Jay Glaser) these patches do not provide any performance benefit and they are cheaper than any other fabric in the cloth list.
This cloth was used because it is faster for the production (auto adhesive, no need double side tapes) and for cosmetic designs purpose.
2. All the SAIL INNOVATION sails will now be banned because they use 2 types of cloth in the body of the sails, causing again dozens of thousand Euros of damage to my company.
According to the independent sail makers from the Working Party (Landenberger, Jay Glaser, Glenn Ashby) these 2 cloths do not provide any performance benefit.
It is proven, a sail with 2 cloths is cheaper and more durable than a sails made of one cloth. This rule is a non-sense. Why does it just affect the mainsail not the jib and spinnaker?
We did not try to cheat or hide the fact we are using 2 different cloths in the body of the main sails. Both materials are clearly mentioned on the label stick on the tack of the sail according to the rules. The sails have been all measured and stamped by official measurer with full knowledge of the facts, the measurer clearly mentioned the 2 cloths on the measurement sheet.
Alleged facts to other sail maker and boat builders:
1. Every single spinnaker is not in accordance with the rules. All the sail makers are using Heavy Dacron fabric for primary patches, which are not in the spinnaker cloth list.
The facts are exactly the same as the one blamed for my sails because I was using patches material not in the cloth list. How can the class change the rules for the spinnaker patches and on the other hand ban all my sails. The facts are exactly the same, the measures should be equal for everyone.
2. All the mains and jibs are infringing the rules regarding the width of the batten pockets. No one banned any sails
3. Pablo Soldano did a special mainsail for Andrew Mc Pherson out of one single really light cloth (Contender Apen 06 1,5mil) just for the world in Ballaton. This sail was brand new for the registration and has lasted 2 days, Andrew had no other choice than changing his main sails in the middle of the championship because it was all stretched and ripped.
Is it really in line with the class goal?
4. Loday and White were using illegal Core Cell foam on their Shock wave. The class decided to grandfather all the boats, not anyone was banned.
5. All the sail makers are use Luff Lines on their spinnakers. According to the rules just leech lines are allowed. Are they going to change the rules or ban these spinnakers…
In conclusion:
The members of the French council and my valued competitors Pablo Soldano (who clearly initiate this fight) and Nacra (all members of the Technical comity) are fully committed to ban my sails and boats which is against the spirit of the class. One can have some doubt regarding their impartiality and fairness.
This is irrelevant and not in order with their responsibility to defend the interest of the class and could be considered as a personal hatred and pure anger against myself. It is a very serious offence.
These decisions taken by the International F18 class against SAIL INNOVATION sails are totally unfair and disgusting!
I cannot let the World Council take such a decision without explaining the entire facts to F18 sailors and the sailing community.
I am fully passionate and dedicated to try to make the best sails and gear for the F18 sailors. I have started to work in a sail loft at the age of 16, I have created my company 9 years ago in order to try to be the most innovative company like it is mentioned in its name “SAIL INNOVATION”.
I am very proud of my team who has strong moral values, fair play and team spirit. Olivier Backes, Arnaud Jarlegan, Gurvan Bomptemps, Charles Hainneville or Benjamin Lamotte never protested against any crew during the last years or tried to cheat. It has always been my way of thinking, you have to win the race on the water not in front of the jury.
This affair is a great disappointment, it is against all the moral values I believe in.
I think you can understand my anger, you are not paying the bill of this stupid fight, but I do.
Best
Alex UDIN
SAIL INNOVATION
Hear Hear Well said Alex
Can someone just sort this shit out.
I see no problem with paint and if the sails will last longer then the current ones (10 months)then this is a move forward.
I want to buy a new boat this season maybe before the worlds but this is not going to happen as the way I see it NO boat is safe at the moment. (which hurts everyone!)
Personaly I do not think you can have people that make their living from the class on the commitee as they will only vote for what makes them money.
The Hobie Tiger was the gun boat a while ago and cost X amount then they bought out the Wild Cat and it cost more but that was ok (which it is) but the boat is no bigger its the same amount of product just in a different shape. What I'm trying to say is, if you can make the latest and greatest thing and charge a little more for it then there is no problem with that. (sorry this IS a development class) someone will always come out with something new and it will cost a little more but good chance it will last a little longer.
Just for the record I support Alex and have no reason to do so money wise.
Ok, lets hear what the class have to say….