F18 Europeans: A Perfect Box Rule and two great Sailors
The Formula 18 Box Rule created by Olivier Bovyn and Charles Pierre Barraud, is the perfect Formula, been said many times, but worth remarking this on current scenario.
3 Last Worlds were won by 3 different designs:
– 2009 deKoning-Visser , Nacra Infusion
– 2010 Backes-Jarlegan, Hobie Wildcat
– 2011 Bundock-Van Leeuwen AHPC C2
No need to add anything else but you can even check the top ten on each of these Worlds to have an even better benchmark.
Current monthly change of the rules are not the path to follow, the class needs to establish solid updated rules for the future, and honor the guiding principles of the IF18CA and take good care of sailors investments.
Rules must be respected (on the racing course and inside the management body) and failing to do that must be punished.
The builders and designers will always push the limits, it is their work… just ask Juan K.
We just need a solid updated rules set, so we can stop wasting time in urgency patches and major gaffes like having to grandfather the 100% of class spis.
We need to dedicate our time and efforts to think the class for the next generation of sailors.
On the F18, to date, always the best sailors win, the parody above is just to accentuate the emphasis on this primal concept.
Congrats Olivier Backes and Arnaud Jarlegan for an impressive performance at the F18 Europeans at Canarias.
Martin,
It's easy to understand you're not happy with the last World Council decisions. Three remarks:
-the european championship as you noticed was a great succes: 84 crews, 11 nations. Despite or may be thanks to WC decisions
-In this WC (like the other one I see), the decisions were voted after long talking and almost unanimously by the representatives of 10 nations and 74% of the worldwide members. For your info, also most of those representative (elected by F18 sailors) paid there boat with their own money.
-You're not agree with the decisions does not mean it is "parody", "failure", "gaffes". May be there is another way to think (and work) for the futur generation of sailor than dead end dispute.
Best regards
Franck Tiffon
trésorier association française de F18
Lets repeat your words "This is an open world of free speech" remember?
You are talking nonsense, and Not getting the message still.
I'm the Nr1 believer on the F18 Box Rule credo.
Some are making the impossible to make people believe that the equipment makes the difference.
Read the post.
Best regards,
Martin-
If the class keeps putting band aids on the rules you wont be able to see the rules anymore!!
There should be a 2 year process for new rules to come in. That way there is enough time to research the matters and educate all members about the proposed changes.
now the class has banned all boats with paint, and there are a lot that have been painted in repairs or to update older boats. But there was no time to work out a way for these boats to keep sailing.
slow down with the reactive rule making that will need to be fixed again anyhow!!!
Martin,
I share with you, that everyone can express his own opinion, thank you to permit that here.
The same way top sailors are in front of the fleet.
Considering F18 Box rules I'm more a reader (and I do like when they apply) than a believer. In my opinion, faith, may be, is not appropriate here.
So what is nonsense in my comment ? I just want to point out that the words you use to express your disagree, are a bit too strong. And may be that does not help to present your ideas.
Best regards
Franck
My ideas are clearly expressed in this post, the ones not getting the message are just closing their eyes: Sailors make the difference.
Changing is not the same as reading the rules.
Too strong is having 4 representatives of 4 countries out of 22 deciding the faith of an International class.
The system and real numbers will be published, as once these 4 countries dictate their vote the rest of the representatives can go home as their votes are NOT required/needed.
I will inform all facts to the sailors with a detailed report on current class matters when the Nov 26 Minutes are published.
Too strong is for people buying stuff that becomes illegal wasting their money.
Words are just that, the actions remains.
Read catsailor forums, not one has an idea why spins were illegal or why two cloths banned.
The information fest was encouraged on the WC by some, the party just began.
Talk you later, need to finish some boats.
Best regards,
Martin
A great movie to show perhaps the feeling of many that the WC was perhaps a little biased againt SI products. As a manufacturer my self it does seem a little directed ,some of the rulings against SI products. the paint especially.
My own boat was today side swiped by an elderly driver who had a heart attack while driving, the bow area damaged on the port hull. According to the new rules I may not repaint the damaged areas, this is just rediculousnand must surely be revisited by the Technical committee.
Good luck fixing that one with gelcoat!! Another example of the WC making decisions with limited comprehension of the consequences, or they just don't care who else gets hurt with the anti Phantom rules…
Franck
Can you please explain how the "no paint" ruling is good for the class???
It can only cause confusion, pain and increased costs to the sailor. It removes options for manufacturers to repair and build boats cost effectively if they choose.
Why is the rule made??
Gavin
How can Franck be happy with 10 nations voting at the meeting, there are 22 nations as members and that means 12 nations did not get a vote!
The class constitution says all nations have to vote or there can be no changes, so why did this happen?
it is also very wrong to have 4 countries control 50% of the voting power.
More equal representation of the WORLDWIDE class is needed.
Hi Gavin,
F18 class rules (20 avril 2010):
D.2.3 al. b: "Routine maintenance such as painting and polishing is permitted without re-measurement and re-certification, providing that the intention and the effect is to polish the hulls only."
D.3.1 al. a: "Every material that is not expressly permitted is prohibited."
As I say, I'm just a reader. You can see the last WC didn't really have to make a "no paint" ruling, just a clarification was needed.
Why using paint was already forbidden ? is a more close to reality question. Some answers (may be there is others):
-because you can use gel coat as 99% of the F18 fleet (the idea is to have close fight on the water with similar boat)
-because gel coat price versus paint price (about 1 to 5 or 1 to 10, depend who you're asking)
-because the construction process is better adapted to the use of gel coat. (direct in the mould) leading to simpler manufacturing and with lower cost. .
Painting needs to prepare the surface (as a car with mastic) and heavy equipment to finish.
You can use gel coat with painting pistol just diluted to repair as well as paint.
And the most important to me:
-because we all know that chemical industry has no limit.
If we accept paint on the hull the certitude is that tomorrow morning appears « magic paint » and also « magic price ».
And then last but not least how make difference between paints? Destructive test?
@ Concerned F18 sailor:
Hi, here some facts to complete:
the voting power during the last WC, were not held by few european countries but: 10 national association representing 871 members (74% of members), 94 votes (70% of vote)
One french member (or Ned or Ger, or Ita and so on) is as important as one F18 sailor from another country in the WC.
Not more, but also not less. How to accept to change that ?
The point to improve is the participation by Skype or whatever for far away representative to expose their positions live (they could have done it before). Some nations were not there and express themselves upon the item of the agenda and voting. Some don't.
May be the more important: the decisions are made after complete and long exchange and most of the decision are unanimous…
Not the power of a few (like on a blog) but very democratic way using elected representative.
Franck
D.2.3 al.b contradicts what your new rule does – I can paint the bottom and sides of my hulls and polish it up for the purposes of "polishing" the hulls for routine maintenance.
D.3.1 al. a. makes your new rule redundant – why not just provide a list of the allowed paints and if something fancy and expensive is developed then don't list it.
If something is developed that is a game changer then it will make it's way into a gelcoat mix eventually.
The very good thing about the F18 class is it's accessibility. Restricting boat hulls to gelcoat only takes away options for many people without achieving anything.
If a paint comes out that is beyond the spirit of F18 sailing then simply ban it – the same as do you for sail cloth.
The rules need to be taken away and completely re-drafted so the class can start from scratch. Too many ammendments create too many loopholes.
Gav
Gavin,
You get the point: paint were already not allowed. No new rules indeed, clarification only.
Another item from our class rules:
A.7.2 Amendments shall be placed on one year's notice unless it is considered essential to act immediately to prohibit or penalize an undesirable feature.
One year notice in order that all builders are in fair competition.
Clarification=Ammendment=change of rules in the F18 Class.
Example:All spinnakers were illegal on April 2010 published rules.
A new Clarification adding text NOT present in that doc made all spis legal in a matters of days.
Fact.
Hi Martin,
Clarification isn't amendment. The exemple you choose is a good one to explain the difference.
Spi with polyester reinforcement exist till 1994. They've never been illegal.
The transfert of the class rules into ISAF format 2 or 3 years ago introduce a possible misunderstanding about that.
So a clarification was important.
But no change of any rules.
Idem for paint.
On the other hand: limit the daggerboard length (1,40 meter under hull) is a brand new rule.
The = that not means literally in this case, is just a way to state that both has the same effect.
Possible misunderstanding?
Like a complete and key phrase that was added with the clarification?
A Key Hard text like "Any wove or polyester" for reinforcement is not misunderstanding. "Any" being the key word added.
The problem is that if you kill by the rules you die by the rules at any given point of time.
Ammendments and clarifications cannot be used to ban A and not B on matters decided at the same moment in time.
That is called a biased and unfair action.
Full details on next post so sailors can know what we are talking about, this seems public private conversation.
Franck,
I have been in direct contact with you regarding the costs and feasibility of using paint in the production process, I had hoped that you understood my emails, but it is now clear that you either don't understand my english or choose not to…
As a person who is currently building boats I feel that I am in a better position that yourself to judge if it is a suitable way to produce a boat.
The material cost as I have informed you privately and now the entire world is 118 Euro for an entire boat. So its not expensive.
The time taken to built a boat in paint is actually less than it takes in gelcoat.
There are NO PERFORMANCE gains with paint.
If there was even the most microscopic advantage with paint I am certain the Olympic classes like the Star, Finn and 470 would all be using it. They are allowed to, yet there is no great rush to paint boats because there is no performance gain!!
So why are we still having all these false arguments with claims of a wonder paint that is yet to be invented???? There might be a wonder gelcoat invented too! What will we do then?
Martin,
I'm so sorry that you do not consider and answer all the items I expose.
One more time you prefer words like: "biased and unfair action"
Those, in my opinion, are not appropriate.
Hi Andrew,
Yes, as a pro, you've done your lobbying job. Thank you for that.I propose you way to change the rules and expose other sounds.
What else can I do ?
Just notice first that today 96,5% of F18 have hull finished with gel coat (last sample: euro F18, 3 boats upon 84 F18).
Three points:
-Please accept that in France there is also builders (not big obvious one), this guy, have not the same technical view.
So, two respectable sounds for the same bell.
Who's wrong on this technical aspect.
For you paint is cheaper, for other gel coat is. So ?
-More important, you write: "There are NO PERFORMANCE gains with paint."
I'm sure you're bonna fide. But please consider that as been written by another builder:
"Our standard matt Durepox reduces the skin friction significantly compared to a normal glossy gel coat"
check there, my source : https://tinyurl.com/73lkcnq
Said that, in my opinion , as I you can read in the class rules, paint as a material, was already forbidden before the last WC.
F18 class rules (20 avril 2010):
D.2.3 al. b: "Routine maintenance such as painting and polishing is permitted without re-measurement and re-certification, providing that the intention and the effect is to polish the hulls only."
D.3.1 al. a: "Every material that is not expressly permitted is prohibited."
I'm sorry that opinions of many in the WC are not even considered.
In my opinion that is not appropriate.
Franck,
You think its ok to throw out 5% of the fleet from the most recent class regatta because of the fear of one day somebody might invent a paint that is better???
I assume the builder in France you are referring to is the same one that told you the cost of materials to paint a F18 was more than 400 Euro?? Perhaps I can assist them in sourcing top quality paint for 1/4 the price!!
And as for the claims that paint has advantages, you must realise like all intelligent people that its marketing… How about we ban Infusing of hulls, its expensive to setup and according to this marketing piece from the Nacra website it has a performance advantage:-
"The boat is named after the method used in construction, the only production catamaran made with this modern Infusion system, this allows better material weight distribution within the hulls, yielding greater stiffness where it is needed, and stiffness is speed !"
You quote rule D.2.3 al. b: "Routine maintenance such as painting and polishing is permitted without re-measurement and re-certification, providing that the intention and the effect is to polish the hulls only."
Can you tell me what I am "painting" my hull with if paint is not allowed??
the rule is very clear!!! Paint IS allowed.
Franck,
I am really sorry but your demagogy is annoying and what you say is irrelevant, maybe it is due to your argumentativeness or maybe just to your incompetence but please stop.
We all do mistakes, do not be arrogant and just admit the decisions you toke during the WC are not fair equal for everyone… It is not good for the sailors.
A small company like SAIL INNOVATION for sure can not replace all the sails they sold.
So you probably know that at the end the week end club sailors who purchased an SI sals out "2 cloths " will have to spend some money to replace it. All the sailors are not billionaires.
They are for sure very disappointed and can not understand it, there is also a risk they quid the F18 class.
@courageous anonymous
Come in the light, don't be afraid !
Those kind of personnal aspect is a waste of time and point out your "argumentiveness or may be just to your incompetence"
PS: please read my comment in Martin last post.
Andrew,
I want nothing, and of course not throwing even 3 boats.
For the paint pricing, may be there is a business for you.
For marketing, aspect infusion process is F18 class legal, as far as I know.
For painting performance increasing or not, who is reliable, so ?
I can use brush or paint spray gun with gel coat, cannot I ?
I'm afraid I can't be as affirmative as you're for previous interpretation about using paint on hull.
the item,
D.3.1 al. a: "Every material that is not expressly permitted is prohibited.",
should have warning effect.
The last WC decisions clarify that paint finishing on hull isn't class legal.
Last WC can't open the class rule before this clarification. According our class rule:
A.7.2 Amendments shall be placed on one year's notice unless it is considered essential to act immediately to prohibit or penalize an undesirable feature.
As I said to you in private mail, go for it and developp your argumentation in the TC first and after for the voting in WC
Franck,
I have repeatedly answered all the concerns you have raised and yet you continue to ignore the facts presented to you.
I can only hope that the french members that you represent are aware of your actions and demand that they are correctly represented in the future.
Franck, you and your valued friend James Backler should retire straight away from the F18 french association and maybe relaunch a one design class like Dart 18 or Topcat…
Your friend
Franck
What am I going to paint my hulls with if I can't use paint?????????? And if I can use paint then you MUST change the wording in that rule.
The rules are contradicting and becoming more confusing.
The WC should stop all rule amendments immediately and work towards a complete re-drawing of the rules over the next 1-2 years with a view to making them simpler and all encompassing.
The class is very strong and developing well under the existing rules. This type of conflict due to small and constant amendments is unhelpful and needs to be avoided.
Gavin
Hi Andrew,
As you see I write with my name under.
It's my duty as representative to confront many technical advices.
You should accept that others and different technical advices than yours exists.
The TC is a good place to confront advices put please consider the ones I present to you (and which are not specially mine).
Rules aspects are another matter.
Best regards
Franck Tiffon
trésorier association française F18
Hi Gavin,
I think that the WC try to do so. Now it's crystal clear that paint is forbidden (in my opinion it was quite obvious before clarification, but clarification was asked).
You're not agree with paint issue, your point is understandable and respectable.
There is a process to change the rules. It is democratic the representative vote in the world council and involved ISAF.
Best regards.
Franck Tiffon
Franck,
You have made an excellent point: The Technical Committee is the right place to present technical matters.
Which is why many in the class find it strange that non technical background members such as yourself have been making contributions to technical submissions such as the suitability of 2 cloths in mainsails. The sailmakers on the working party to review sail construction all agreed that there was no reason to not allow 2 cloths in mainsails, yet the report went forward claiming the exact opposite!!
So, how about you stay out of matters that are technical and leave that stuff to the builders, sailmakers and measurers.
Then once the FACTS have been submitted in a technical report you can then vote against everything as you would do regardless of the facts….
@Shy Anonymous said…
"Franck, you and your valued friend James Backler should retire straight away from the F18 french association and maybe relaunch a one design class like Dart 18 or Topcat…
Your friend"
Again, come in the light.
We can exchange facts. Personnal way you use , just illustrate that you can't have ideas confrontation.
So, I propose you one more (incredible I should admit) idea:
Technical comittee is the right place for people who have business in F18.
Franck
Macca (Andrew),
Thank you very much for this comment.
That can help any one to understand how F18 class work.
It's not very complicated.
Technical Committee is the place were "pro" in business with F18 world (builder, sailmaker and others) exchange and propose advices and report to the World Council.
World Coucil composed by representative of national association vote. The vote power is in proportion of the members.
For the 2 cloths in mainsail, I received many emails from great F18 champion, heard from the former french Tornado trainer and so on.
You do mean that, representative cannot report what they heard and read ? Or they have to follow without any discussion TC advice ?
Please do not miss a point: two cloths in the sails were obviously not class legal since a 2007 WC vote.
And guess what ? I was not in the WC at this period 😉
Again class rules can be changed, there is a process.
Best regard.
Franck
The Class works like this:
Once FRA, ITA, NED and GER cast their vote the rest of the representatives are pure decoration, they can be well be at home having some coffee.
This is a Fact.
The process to change rules is very simple and quick: If you forgot to add a key phrase to the April 2010 rules text thus making all spins illegal, you just make a clarification and add that text again in a matters of days.
This is a Fact.
Franck,
I heard from a mate in the bar (who used to sail hobie 14's back in the day) at my local yacht club that red gelcoat is faster than white. I think the WC should ban all red gelcoat based on this unverified rumour….
We have a Technical Committee so that the technical aspects that affect the class can be assessed by qualified people, the results are reported to the WC and that is the stage where the WC members can comment on the reports.
You are proposing a system where the patients fill in the doctors report…
Martin said…
"The Class works like this:
Once FRA, ITA, NED and GER cast their vote the rest of the representatives are pure decoration, they can be well be at home having some coffee.
This is a Fact."
Hi Martin,
2011: 280 paying members (you can check the ID http://www.f18.fr) in the french association.
You propose than one french sailor (or ned or ita, and so on) have less power vote than one from another country ?
You can also check in the minutes that almost vote are unanimously after long talk. It's not black or white but grey most of the time.
Those are also facts
"Macca said…
Franck,
I heard from a mate in the bar (who used to sail hobie 14's back in the day) at my local yacht club that red gelcoat is faster than white. I think the WC should ban all red gelcoat based on this unverified rumour…."
I thing it was orange the fastest 😉
More seriously, 2 quotations not from the bar:
"Our standard matt D… reduces the skin friction significantly compared to a normal glossy gel coat"
from:
https://tinyurl.com/73lkcnq
"…is used as a topcoat on racing boats because it has an excellent ability to provide a water barrier and withstand the harsh affects of the weather and marine environment. In results done by Otago Flume Laboratory they found that its satin finish gave a 15% less drag coefficient that a high gloss surface. "
from:
https://tinyurl.com/btbh3ct
"Macca said…
We have a Technical Committee so that the technical aspects that affect the class can be assessed by qualified people, the results are reported to the WC and that is the stage where the WC members can comment on the reports.
You are proposing a system where the patients fill in the doctors report…"
TC members are highly qualified and involved in F18 business.
Considering paint issue: some of the members of the TC have another argumentation than you have. Both advices are respectable.
Its very easy to have unanimous votes when you dont accept the proxy votes from more than half the member countries!
Oh, and its unconstitutional too, so unless the situation is fixed soon ISAF will decide.
Franck,
Maybe we should tell the Olympic classes that there is a magic paint that will make them win at the London games? Or maybe there is no difference at all and you have just quoted some marketing material as fact… A common mistake. If we all believed marketing material we would have to buy a Nacra Infusion because it claims to be stiffer and faster….
Concerned F18 sailor said…
"Its very easy to have unanimous votes when you dont accept the proxy votes from more than half the member countries!
Oh, and its unconstitutional too, so unless the situation is fixed soon ISAF will decide."
You're so sure of that, with so much argument that you have to hide yourself…
Just read again our constitution.
Andrew,
May paint marketing is only marketing, and may be not.
Why taking any risk about that ?
Franck, I'm sorry but if you're involved on the technical committee and are making decisions based on your post above (perhaps, perhaps not….) then the class is going to suffer in the future.
The TC MUST make its decisions based on fact, not heresay or marketing.
Can you identify to me One other class that bans paint??? And can you identify to me One paint that is PROVEN to be more advantageous than another.
Then after that can you show me One class that has banned a paint as it provides an unfair advantage while costing more than other paints.
Gavin
Gavin,
So sorry may be my poor englis does not help. I try again.
First Technical Comittee (which I 'm not a part) give advices, the World Council is the representative meeting and we do vote.
Please consider that company advertising engaged their responsability.
Second whatever Macca or others respectable advices, material non listed were not allowed before the last F18 World Council.
As no sailor had protested, no jury decision.
So, the last WC made a clarification.
The only rule we add during last WC was for the daggerboard length limit.
Now, the situation is clear, and each national association can propose a amendment. There is a process and a vote.
Of course if majority of F18 members do not want paint there will be no paint.
In France there surely will be a poll in spring. The french representative will vote following the poll and do not care with it's own opinion.
Most of the time it's not difficult, as F18 sailors we think as ordinary members. Representative are elected.
Kind regards
Franck
Franck,
You have just highlighted one of my major issues with the class at the moment.
You voted against painted hulls at the WC meeting on the 26th November.
Then you say that the French class will take a poll this spring about painted hulls….. Its too late by then!!!
You voted already!!! So there is a massive mess because you voted on an issue without correctly informing your members of an issue that will effect them.
You also voted on an issue based on rumour and marketing.
great job!!
Andrew,
My mask is off, I'm over, You win…
More seriously, one again:
"whatever Macca or others respectable advices, material non listed were not allowed before the last F18 World Council.
As no sailor had protested before, no jury decision.
So, the last WC made clarification.
The only rule we add during last WC was for the daggerboard length limit.
Now, the situation is clear, and each national association can propose a amendment. There is a process (path) and a vote.
Of course if majority of F18 members do not want paint there will be no paint.
In France there surely will be a poll in spring. The french representative will vote following the poll and do not care with it's own opinion.
Most of the time it's not difficult, as F18 sailors we think as ordinary members. Representative are elected."
Said that Andrew, till 2/3 days I try to explain you to go on the process. May be my english is too bad. I prefer believe that.
Perhaps You want a mess, but there is no mess, sorry.
Regards
Franck
Franck,
perhaps it is the language barrier, I certainly can't understand your last comment.
Perhaps it is also an issue for you to understand the class constitution which is in english. Maybe we would not disagree if you knew that the recent decisions made by the WC were in fact not legal under the class constitution.
Andrew,
So sorry if you don't get the point.
I propose you a positive path, you can keep on wasting your time.
No language barrier, more difference you're involved in F18 money business. I'm not. No value judgment there, no offense, only a fact.
Your affirmation concerning the last WC is engaging only you. Remember 10 national association representing 871 members (74% of members), 94 votes (70% of vote).
But You do not agree, so it could'nt exist. Ok.
Good night (for me it's time to leave)
Franck
Actually Franck, my view of the last WC meeting is shared by a number of national class associations and one of them has submitted a motion on behalf of that group to set aside the recent decisions based on the constitutional breach.
ISAF have been notified of the matter and unless the class acts in line with its own constitution it will become a matter for ISAF to resolve.
Good morning Franck!
I do no understand why F18 class MUST ban paint when I can't find another class that bans paint. It limits options for repairs and building with no benefit to the sailors in the class.
Again, can you please identify ONE sailing class that also bans paint because of it's performance advantages.
The same argument can be used for advertising on hulls. The vinyl used may have a performance advantage – do you ban this too? If not then someone can wrap their entire hull.
I firmly believe the rules need to be re-written – no more amendments as it is confusing the issues.
Gavin